Sir; In my humble opinion -- I have a little different information concerning (Zheng Du, Liv-6) And my information comes from Two "Masters of Taijiquan". 1. Erle Montaigue, and 2. A. Flane Walker.
Erle; has trained under 5 Taiji Masters! And he was Tested by Three of the World's leading internal martial arts experts and was granted the degree of "Master." --- He was the first Westerner to receive this Honor!
Walker; Well Master Walker, is the Grand Master of "Won Hop Loong Chuan" - His Qualifations are Impeccable!

First, you state that To say Liv-6 does not Drain Qi - Is Misleading!
Quote; From the (Encyclopedia of Dim-mak);
"This is a xie cleft point, so it is an accumulation point for qi. Striking this point will cause local pain, as well as muscle spasm in the leg. "Struck directly, it will cause Nausea with ENERGY DRAINAGE!
Quote; From the (The Ancient Art Of Life And Death);
Martial application; WARNING---Strikes to this acupoint can cause confusion and disorientation. Struck hard enough, it will cause nausea and SEVERE CHI DRAIN.  You also state in the Application, to turn the strike "Upwards"? Where did that come from?
Also, there isn't a set-up point listed?


Now, I do not know You - On this Fourm, it is stated that you are a master, and being a master, does not mean that you can not make mistakes!

Thank you Sir; Gee, you know, i just read my last post, and it seemed a little gruff - I Apologize for my Demeanor I'm not a writer - Sometimes, I can sound like a know it all - Even after 50 years in the Arts, I'm still, and always will be a student - Because I RESPECT the Information that Erle Montaigue, and Master Walker has given me in the past (i have used what ive learned from them on the job) I'm just trying to pass it own to those that at least have an open/mind!

Thank you for responding to my post

Tom your gitting that tone again! There are many types of martial arts right, and in them, all the different system have different techniques and view points. One that is very common is what weapon to use to activate a pp, one style will say this another will say that. One system will say it does this, another will say it does that. And you should have read the commentary closer. this is explained for you. The problem is that you have learned one system with pp. And you see a singlar point of view. When I write these pp's out, it is not limited to one single point of view, it is taken from three systems of fighting with pp, and reduced to a common dinominater. Before you embarrass yourself again, ask your teacher if this is true or not. I have very much respect for your teacher and his style, put don't forget it's not the only one!

 Now about the commentary, If you reread my commentary, and take the time to investigate acupuncture theory you will fine that I was correct it collects it does not drain If it did, the question is there does it drain to?? It goes again electrical theory and acupunture theory. A you state that it is a collector but you don't know what that maens!

  again ask your teacher these question and if he can answer he will, Now if one of my student spoke to a student let along some one of rank, the way that you do, he would be in trouble with me. Does your teacher know you challenge me. I don't think so If he does I would like to know. Like I said before I have spoken to your teacher many times, I don't think that he would want you to create a challenge between to system of art it is not his way or any good teacher way, to down grade and style or system or teaching. And when it has been done in the past, it always brings enbarassment to your shcool.

 But thats o.k. it is just good form to be quiet, too relax the mind, and you will be able to think before you speak. which leads me to a question for you. Do you practice QI Gung?

Tom
Please dont leave our forum. I cant speak for everyone but I find your experiences to be very helpful.

Also I dont beleive that Master Lambert realized that the post he mentioned was almost two weeks old. I know you two have carried on some conversation since then.

We hope you dont leave but I will respect your decision.

sincerly
Scott

MasterLambert;
I have been thinking about your post - Concerning Liv-6!
Again, I apologize for my TONE, But I do not Apologize for what I believe is True about Liv-6 - The information that i have on Liv-6 does not just come from One Source, but Two! 1.(Erle Montaigue), and 2.(A. Flane Walker)!
Quote from Erle's Book = DAMAGE (This is a xie cleft point, so it is an accumulation point for qi. Striking this point will cause local pain as well as muscle spasm in the leg. Struck directly, it will cause nausea "with an Energy Drainage." If it is struck hard enough, the recipient will have to sit down to recover. This is a good point to strike to when you just want to stop the situation and not really do that much damage.)
Quote from Walker's Book = DAMAGE ( WARNING----Strikes to this acupoint can cause confusion and disorientation. Struck hard enough, it will cause nausea and "Severe Chi Drain".) Now, Note that Both of these Masters Do State That Liv-6 Does Drain Chi!!!
And, I'm not the least bit Embarrassed for anything! My reason for telling you about Liv-6, was ment to help you, not to say that your wrong about anything! You just took my message completely the Wrong Way!
Now, you said that if one of your students spoke to someone with RANK, the way that I spoke to you, they would be in trouble with you! And, you went on to ask me if my teacher knew that I was Challenging You? First of All, It Was Not A Challenge, It Was enlightenment, so to speak, not a Challenge!!! Also, I'm not Just a Student of Erle's -- I also have RANK!!! My RANK is Kudan (9th Degree Black Belt, in Nonaka Ryu Ju-jutsu) Which, If I Wanted Too, I Could Call Myself a "Master"!!!
I did not just fall off the Pickle Truck, so to speak - I have been involved in the Study for over Fifty (50) Years Now - And I also have had Numerous Teachers, that Stand On A Much Higher Hill Then I Do!!!

So, As One Master too a
Another - Is it OK to Agree to Disagree, without letting the EGO come into Play???

Yours,
Tom

Tom, it's o.k.
in the future,when we post to one an other, let us be a little more scientific about what we talk about. the purpose of a scientific view point should be, advancement of practice and theory. And all of usknow that, there are veryables to consider when any point is hit. that may go someting like this, If I hit a given point and he hits a given point and we got different effects, What is the differents? discovering this would advance theory one way or the other. discusion of your and practice theory and effects, specially when they differ, create a question What is the differents? To me, its not about who's right or wrong. I injoy a posts, that comes to the web-site and yours are even more interesting than others. So I have no wish for you to stop posting, or stating your though's If I call a point a collector and another calls it drainage. what I need is the reason why they say it's a drainage point,there theory. I already know that they say what they say, but on what scienciftic basis do they say it, is what we need to know. and you and I (and other poster) might talk about our theory's that truly would be great in my mind. In that way, it is possible for every one to come out with more advanced theory's. Now I stated my theory's and why I call it a Collector, If I'm out of line or off at all I would love to be called on it and talk about it and resolve it scientificlly. But, I want your theorys, and M-Walker and M- Mantaigue, can speak for them selves. this web site is open to all. and I am always willing to talk to them as well about theory. I would love to talk theory with all modern master at any time, and if that should happen all are vistors would also love to be able to Talk about theory with them too, done you think?

I am very sorry, if I reacted strongly to your last post But remember that I have a great deal of respect for Your system and teacher as you know and I have great respect for you Tom.

kind regards L.P.Lambert.